The New York Times' Global Chief Advertising Officer, Joy Robins, discusses games, commerce media and why news organizations need to shift the narrative away from "brand safety" to attract advertisers.
Damian Fowler (00:00):
I'm Damian Fowler.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):
And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.
Damian Fowler (00:02):
And welcome to The Big Impression.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):
This week we're joined by Joy Robins, Global Chief Advertising Officer at the New York Times.
Damian Fowler (00:14):
The Times is about to celebrate its 175th anniversary and it's also become something much bigger than just a newspaper.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:22):
Today, millions of people come to The Times, not just for the news, but for sports, games, product reviews, recipes, and podcasts.
Damian Fowler (00:30):
In fact, some of its biggest audiences aren't reading articles at all. They're solving Wordle, listening to The Daily or Checking Wirecutter for making a purchase.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:38):
That's created a very different challenge and opportunity for advertisers. How do you build a marketing strategy around a company that's part newsroom, part subscription bundle, and part digital platforms?
Damian Fowler (00:50):
So let's get into it.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:53):
Joy, the New York Times turns 175 this year, which is quite a milestone. When you look at that journey from a print newspaper supported largely by ads to a subscription first multi-product company, what would you say stands out to you about how advertising has evolved alongside that consumer behavior?
Joy Robins (01:14):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Our journey has been one that has really been centered around becoming the essential subscription for every curious person seeking to understand and engage with the world. And so part of that is obviously becoming and establishing ourselves as the world's best news destination, but it's also been about building these lifestyle products that really appeal to people's passions and ultimately bundling it all together in a connected product experience. And what that's meant for the advertising side is we've long worked with many brands who are looking to reach and engage news readership, high net worth individuals, the engagement, capture the engagement that comes along with news, but now we're able to also offer so much more in terms of entry points and big spaces, whether that be advertisers who are interested in reaching sports audiences or shopping advice or games.
(02:13):
And what it has really done is that it's created this really engaged community. We have 150 million registered users, as you mentioned, over 13 million subscribers. It's giving them access to audiences that are just coming in for so many different reasons with so many different intent points.
Damian Fowler (02:31):
And one of the interesting things is that your recent results is that the subscriber growth isn't just being driven by news, to your point right now. How does that change your conversation with advertisers?
Joy Robins (02:43):
I think it gives us a far more wide ranging opportunity with advertisers because it gives us opportunities to talk about if what you're in the market to do is capture shoppers or heads of households who might be looking to think about what they want to cook for dinner or people who are playing games first thing in the morning. It creates different entry points for those advertisers. And so it might mean that we're working with a single advertiser across many dimensions of their campaign, or it just gives us an opportunity to work with a broader array of advertisers who may just look to align with different parts of the portfolio. So it just makes the breadth of the business the potential total addressable market for our advertisers and how they work with us much, much larger.
Damian Fowler (03:31):
Or was it clear that games could help the time scale?
Joy Robins (03:35):
Yeah. I mean, so look, I got here three years ago and one of the first things that we did was actually start to put advertising on Wordle, which had never had an advertising opportunity before. And what we really realized was that we've got this captive, engaged, habitual audience who are coming to us day after day and how could we in a quality way for the user experience but in an impactful way for the advertiser, think about leveraging that massive scale. Tens of millions of people are coming into Play Wordle every single week and they're coming multiple times. How do you really harness that habit and that engaged consumer to the benefit of advertisers? And the way that we landed on an ad opportunity is one that it's for non-subscribers only. However, it is a really elegant singular ad that once you hit play, you have a video or you have a really high impact unit that appears before that and it has just scaled so quickly.
(04:47):
It is Wordle and our other games like Connections, Spelling Be, they're cultural phenomenons. And what it's allowed advertisers to do is really be able to tap into that fandom, those game players, the wordlers, the connections players in a way that has a lot of impact because they're the singular brand in that experience, but one that is also really user first in its orientation.
Ilyse Liffreing (05:12):
Now The Times also has Wirecutter, which really brings commerce into the equation as well. And that was really early to the idea that content and commerce and ads can all live together. What would you say that has taught you about where commerce media is actually headed?
Joy Robins (05:30):
So Wirecutter is such an exciting story because obviously the brand has existed, been around for 15 years and it had largely existed obviously as one of the best destinations for shopping advice. The business model really thrived off of an affiliate business. Wirecutter drove a billion dollars in gross sales last year. It is an incredibly powerful tool when it comes to those recommendations that lead to purchases. We only launched advertising on WireCutter just over a year ago. And what it's allowed us to understand is how you can both impact commerce and decision and purchasing through the content, but also partnerships with, like you mentioned, Google shopping. How do you integrate different tools that might be advantageous to the reader and given brand an opportunity to really authentically show up at what they're best at like we've done with Google Shopping.
Damian Fowler (06:26):
And it's a very good example actually of premium media and a destination for like just people actually go directly to Wirecutter. I know I do.
Joy Robins (06:35):
I'm so glad that you brought that up. I think one of the things that The Times has done that has really fortified our business and is important that we continue to keep doing is creating direct relationships with our readers, with our listeners, with our viewers, such that they seek our products out by name. And what that means from an advertiser perspective is that you're capturing the loyalty and engagement of those people who are coming who trust the times, whether it be for shopping advice or whether it be to decide what they're going to cook for dinner for their families or to understand what's just happened in the world. That direct relationship, I love that you said that you go directly there because it's an intentional sort of destination.
Ilyse Liffreing (07:19):
It's a little bit about brand match. Maybe the origin story behind that, because there was, I know a problem existing targeting maybe can solve.
Joy Robins (07:29):
Yeah. It's interesting. I don't think it was necessarily a problem as much as we saw an opportunity. So just to give you a little bit of history, the New York Times was really always on the cutting edge of first party data targeting. We have, as I mentioned, 150 million registered users, we have billions of points of signal. So that allowed us to create a really powerful first party data targeting engine early on. We also obviously have the ability to contextually target, but what we recognized is that when we have a brand like Chanel or Cartier, they consider themselves very different brands. They think very differently about the story of what they're offering, but largely they were targeting very similar contextual alignments or first party data segments. But when you read the brief of each of those brands, the essence of those brands are very different.
(08:25):
And what it's allowed us to do through our targeting tool brand match that we launched almost two years ago this year is the BrandMatch tool really understands the essence of these briefs. It actually goes and looks at the corpus of New York Times content and identifies areas of coverage, articles, places within the report or within the portfolio that would not have been a natural fit or you wouldn't have thought to necessarily target. So it's creating, it's identifying new spaces for these brands and it's also starting to help them understand additional supplemental audiences who might be interested in these types of features or brand narratives. And so it's allowed us to create an entirely new category of targeting for brands, not in complete taking out the importance of something like first party or contextual targeting. It's just something that we're seeing as augmenting the targeting journey on the Times.
Ilyse Liffreing (09:26):
And how would you describe the success of that so far?
Joy Robins (09:29):
It's actually been really exciting to see. We had a hypothesis that if you were able to sort of find these unexpected places that it would actually help increase brand affinity or intention. We've seen incredible results by things like 30% lift in brand preference or intent. And we've seen it go from what we rolled out as a beta product just almost two years ago to something that hundreds of advertisers are now using because of its efficacy. And we really look forward to thinking about how we iterate upon that tool.
Damian Fowler (10:09):
And it also covers, as I understand it, editorial sponsorships and programmatic PMP deals. And what does that expansion tell you about where advertisers are looking and what they want?
Joy Robins (10:18):
It's such a good question. I think our ability when we launched BrandMatch, quite frankly, it was a pretty manual process. We were really making these matches by hand in a lot of ways and it wasn't something that you could automate the recognition that we wanted to include it in PMPs and in the way that we're working through automated trading made it a lot faster, more accessible to more brands. And I think that to your point or to your question, brands are looking to be able to activate frictionlessly. How can they make sure that they're getting access to quality audiences and quality products and quality features in a way that creates a direct relationship with a publisher but doesn't necessarily acquire as many hands. And that's really what was the genesis of our making a tool like BrandMatch more accessible.
Ilyse Liffreing (11:12):
Now I think we should zoom out a little bit. Look at the bigger picture. There's a lot of talk out there now about publishers really needing to take back control of their data and distribution. Where does the times sit on that spectrum and where do partnerships still make sense?
Joy Robins (11:29):
Sure. It's a great question. I talked a little bit about this before, but I think we've been very, very deliberate about owning our data, ensuring that we are not being disintermediated and that not only readers have direct relationships with the Times, but advertisers and agencies also maintain direct relationships with the Times. And so I think what that's led us to do is ensure that we are constantly working to understand the goals and objectives of our clients and able to really prove outcomes Because I think in a world where to the last question, people are looking for frictionless opportunities and just to being able to perhaps buy without necessarily having to work directly through a specific publishing partner, offer those opportunities, but we're very intentional about the partners with whom we might work and give access to our inventory. And so what our customers, what our clients and what our agencies expect from us is that they're going to be working with trusted, well-regarded companies like the Times.
(12:41):
So we really make sure that any partnerships that we're doing are built on those same pillars of trust.
Ilyse Liffreing (12:46):
How do you make all of those different pieces feel like one relationship?
Joy Robins (12:51):
It's such a good question because sometimes with a portfolio that broad, you walk into a room and you're like, "Well, we have sports and we have shopping and we have games." Which one do you want? Which one do you want? And I think the thing that we are really conscious of is first understanding what the advertiser's business goals are. Are you looking for specific audiences? Are you looking for specific cultural moments? Are you looking for specific times of the year? So I think it all starts first with the consultative approach of really trying to understand what is most important. And from there, I think it helps us then identify what is the best product feature or portfolio brand that is really going to help them accomplish that. And what is, I think, kind of becoming even more fun and exciting is a single cultural moment, which I think we've seen advertisers really want to align with.
(13:48):
Let's take Thanksgiving. It isn't just a cooking story, it's a sports story because of all of the things that are happening around Thanksgiving and the sporting calendar. It's a shopping story because of things like Black Friday and Cyber Monday. It's a games opportunity because families and communities are together really playing games and celebrating that time. And so it helps us if it's a cultural moment that an advertiser is interested in, we have an anchor point, but then a lot of different ways to be able to tap into that cultural moment.
Damian Fowler (14:21):
That's such an interesting way of thinking about it, having a cultural calendar as you plot the year out and you have all of these different things that sort of like ladder up
Joy Robins (14:30):
Into
Damian Fowler (14:30):
It. I wanted to ask you a little bit about brand safety and news avoidance. We were talking before the podcast a little bit about that and it's still a dominant anxiety in some cases. You've navigated that in your career at BBC Quartz at the Post and now the times and I was wondering what your perspective is now. Has anything actually changed? Are we having the same conversation with better vocabulary perhaps? I
Joy Robins (14:55):
Think we're having a lot of the same conversation. I am so proud to have been at all of those institutions and inclusive of this one and talking about the importance of news, but I don't think it's just the importance of news because we believe it's the advertiser's responsibility to support the news ecosystem. It's because we continue to see the value of news to their marketing goals. And one of the things that I think I've said for a long time is first and foremost, news is not a monolith. The term news is often perceived to mean politics and war
(15:34):
And there is so much more across our core news report than that. It is food, it's culture, it's fashion. It is all of these cultural calendar and it's a place people come to be engaged. And so even if an advertiser doesn't want to appear next to the harder news areas of a report, it shouldn't disqualify news broadly defined. But I think what I've also started to see particularly within the Times is, and I kind of call advertisers on a spectrum, you've got the advertisers who have long recognized the importance and value of news, particularly when they're looking to reach high net worth audiences, business decision makers. And so those advertisers have long sort of, I think, embraced what is such an advantage when it comes to news. You've also got the other end of the spectrum that I call the never newsers that we have been able to start to work with just through the broader parts of the portfolio like sports and games and shopping.
(16:41):
And they may only stay in sports and games and shopping, but it has allowed us to actually take some of what I would say have been never newsers and introduce them into some of the broader parts of the news portfolio. And what we see is in advertisers who may start working with us just on games, if you add some of the news report in some of the areas that are more predisposed to where marketers feel comfortable, there's actually a lift in intent and in performance. And so we've been able to onboard in the same way that I think the Times Full Portfolio introduces more people to consider the Times as a place that they might go, maybe it's through games and cooking. So too has advertisers recognize that the core report in some of those lifestyle areas are an opportunity for them. And what I hope that can do for the wider ecosystem is start to have us have a conversation about what news includes rather than just whether or not it's safe.
Damian Fowler (17:44):
That's a really good point. The definition of news has been misconstrued.
Joy Robins (17:48):
A hundred percent.
Damian Fowler (17:49):
So you don't really make the argument that it's about the economics of journalism per se.
Joy Robins (17:53):
We have for a long time and I think that it is a known fact that it is really important to have a healthy press to have a healthy society and democracy. I just think over the years I've recognized that what it really comes down to is these brand marketers and CEOs are responsible for building value for their own companies. So how can we turn the conversation into what something like the category of news and the news audience can deliver in terms of value creation for their business? We use the word brand safety and I wish we would move to a word that is more like brand suitability because I think it's not unsafe to advertise in news. There may be moments and creatives that aren't suitable for adjacencies in certain areas. And so if we can talk more about that rather than just pure safety, I think it can start to make us start to have a different conversation.
(18:51):
But to your point, and we are so grateful to Stagwell for having that future of news conversation because it is bringing awareness from a third party to say, we've tested it and not only is it not safe, but actually there are a lot of advantages.
Damian Fowler (19:08):
Not all publishers can replicate what The Times has achieved. What's your kind of advice or message, if you like, to the rest of the publishing world?
Joy Robins (19:17):
What I can only speak to is really what we've really focused on at The Times and that's something that I think is really behind our ability to not only survive but thrive in this really changing ecosystem. And I think we've always known that the first and most important thing to invest in is the journalism. The second thing we recognize is that the customer, the reader, the user is at the heart of everything that we do. Engagement is the lifeblood of every single business of the New York Times. And so I think as long as you're staying true to your values and you're recognizing where the value and the distinction comes from the sort of engagement perspective, I think that that's really what's been so important to making us successful.
Ilyse Liffreing (20:05):
Rapid fire questions. Yes. Joy, we have some rapid fire questions for you now. What would you say you're obsessed with trying to figure out?
Joy Robins (20:15):
One of the things that I know that The Times is well regarded for by advertisers and the community is when there's a big brand campaign or when there's something to say and announce, The Times is one of the first places that they go. I think from a branding perspective, we are known as an excellent partner. What I'm obsessed with figuring out is The Times as a portfolio drives so much conversation and culture and commerce, we write about a destination and all of a sudden you can't get reservations there anymore. It becomes an incredible destination for tourists. I know that the advertising on the New York Times drives an essential amount of consideration and ultimately outcomes. What I'm obsessed with right now is making sure that we can start to really present ourselves and show up to brands and help them understand not just how we help them gain awareness and intent, but how that actually manifests itself in consideration and outcomes.
(21:19):
And so we're really trying to connect that full funnel experience within the Times.
Damian Fowler (21:23):
What's missing from the ad marketplace?
Joy Robins (21:27):
I think there are so many different partners you need to work with for separate parts of the funnel. I think that the platforms are obviously excellent for when it comes to that very, very, very bottom of the funnel. I think that there should be more discussion about the mid part of the funnel and really understanding how that's an essential part between that top and bottom. And so what I hope we can do is make the New York Times an essential partner for exactly that.
Ilyse Liffreing (21:56):
Now you've run ad businesses at four major media organizations, not an easy thing to do. What's the biggest thing you've learned about what advertisers actually want?
Joy Robins (22:10):
They want partners who are invested in their success. I mean, I think that the thing that I've really enjoy and love about this industry is the ability to build relationships not built on transaction, but like an exchange of value. And I think that the more that we can bring what we at The Times or anywhere I've ever been, but more specifically, The Times, what we can uniquely offer in terms of insights or experimentation or measurement, that's something that I think our marketers are really hungry for understanding anything that can help them do their job, achieve that responsibility of value creation in a better way. I think that value exchange is the heart of this. And so staying true to that is something that I think can help the business succeed.
Damian Fowler (23:09):
And that's it for this edition of The Big Impression.
Ilyse Liffreing (23:11):
This show is produced by Molten Heart. Our theme is by Love and Caliber and our associate producer is Sydney Cairns.
Damian Fowler (23:18):
And remember-
Joy Robins (23:19):
We use the word brand safety and I wish we would move to a word that is more like brand suitability because I think it's not unsafe to advertise in news.
Damian Fowler (23:29):
I'm Damian.
Ilyse Liffreing (23:30):
And I'm Ilyse.
Damian Fowler (23:31):
And we'll see you next time.