BBDO’s Daale Carter reveals how consumer listening, challenger thinking and a willingness to take risks are helping both iconic and upstart brands stay relevant.
Damian Fowler (00:00):
I'm Damian Fowler
Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):
And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.
Damian Fowler (00:02):
And welcome to The Big Impression.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:04):
This week we're joined by Daale Carter, Chief Client Experience Officer at BBDO.
Damian Fowler (00:09):
Daale's built her reputation as a bit of a client whisperer, helping brands move past safe ideas into work people actually notice.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:17):
She's done that with everyone from challenger brands like auto insurance company, The General, to global icons like Mars. And
Damian Fowler (00:25):
At The General, that's meant finding creative ways to compete without outspending everyone else, leaning into music partnerships or gaming experiences such as Fortnite. And
Ilyse Liffreing (00:35):
With Mars, it's about something completely different, figuring out how an iconic brand keeps evolving without losing what made people love it in the first place. So
Damian Fowler (00:44):
We're going to talk about how Daale challenges clients creatively, builds stronger partnerships, and why listening to consumers matters more than ever. So let's get into it.
Ilyse Liffreing (00:56):
So Daale, how do you balance protecting something as iconic as the M&M brand while still pushing it to evolve, especially when changes are driven by something as unglamorous but critical as product quality or supply change improvements?
Daale Carter (01:13):
The beauty of working with clients like Mars is that they have a relentless commitment to both creativity and to their product superiority. And so the most important thing is having clients who are willing to listen. And I think in the case of Mars, in the case of M&Ms, they listened. In fact, they listened in the place that the most conversation happens and that's social. And so the whole conversation started in Reddit. And if you think about us as a partner, we're constantly working with clients to solve specific business problems, but actually in this case, there was a product that needed to be enhanced or improved in service of solving those business problems. So not only did they solve the product problem, they solved the product problem for brands other than Mars, and then they told the story of how they did it so that other brands also have the opportunity to improve their products.
(02:06):
And so I think when you think about a situation like that, it's a classic example where all boats rise and the ability to take heed for what you're hearing both socially, but also from your agencies and then really do the work that needs to be done, which by the way, was a lot of work on their part to get to something that was improved and superior.
Ilyse Liffreing (02:27):
Yeah. It does seem like a lot of work going through a ton of Reddit conversations and just investing that time to do so. What does that really say about the power really of listening at scale? And then maybe what did that teach you guys about closing the loop with consumers?
Daale Carter (02:49):
Yeah, I've talked about Reddit ad nauseum this week because I think Reddit is the perfect illustration of social intelligence. The problems are raised in Reddit, people then seek advice and brands can engage in those conversations and then you come back and see the solution kind of close the loop. And one of the things we've been talking about a lot at BBDO is just the true power of social intelligence. Often the conversation starts in a book, in a research manual, and then the output is pushed to platforms like Reddit. For us, we think it's really important that the conversation or the insights start in platforms like Reddit. And then to your point, that brands then go back to places like Reddit and continue to engage with the consumers because I think that's where we get our best insights and our best opportunities from.
Damian Fowler (03:41):
Could you talk a little bit about the initial challenge that Mars faced M&M and how Reddit and the discovery through Reddit helped solve that problem?
Daale Carter (03:54):
Yeah, I mean it was as simple as typical Reddit subreddit where people were talking about noticing a slight change in how their M&Ms tasted. And so it started with a subreddit and people having that conversation and Mars, again, through mining that social intelligence, coming across that conversation and realizing that it wasn't just one or two people who had a point of view, but a genuine feeling and a perception. And then they applied science to it. So they took their scientists, they went in the lab. But the biggest thing is that there was a natural process that happens to peanuts, which means that they needed to be farmed slightly differently. And so I think that Reddit was really the starting point of understanding how consumers were experiencing the product and then them doing the legwork to really correct that.
Damian Fowler (04:49):
And then how did BBDO, how did your agency take that information and help drive it towards creative campaign?
Daale Carter (05:00):
Yeah, I mean they came to us and basically said it started with a subReddit. We have invested all of these dollars in farming and agriculture and improving the product. And now we want our audience, our consumers to know. What was interesting about it, we didn't think that the solution to that was going to be a typical a six-second ad or a 15-second ad to tell that story. We though it was important to take the consumers through the journey of the discovery, how we found it through Reddit, the experience, the science and the effort and the investment that Mars had put in, and then the outcome being this superior product. So we created a documentary style, which is like seven-minute long DocuStyle edit that really, really took them through. And I think when you have a situation where in a social platform, people feel really passionately about a product, it does feel rewarding to give back to those consumers and say, "Hey, we heard you and actually here is the process that your commentary, your conversation sparked." So for us, we felt that the most creative way to bring this to life was in the depth of what Mars did to really solve this problem for consumers.
(06:16):
Absolutely. I mean, social can be a content hotbed. There is a lot of content in social and a lot of that content is designed to just grab attention. I don't think that Mars went into this with a view to grab attention. They went into it with a view to solving a very real business problem, and in doing so, they were able to communicate to the consumers that they heard them. And I think that's really important because a lot of the time it can be a one-way loop.
Ilyse Liffreing (06:50):
The General is serving non-traditional insurance buyers and leaning into that identity. Can you take us inside then how a campaign like the Generals, maybe the Sound Studio or their Road Test Royales campaign and how that comes to life as that challenger brand?
Daale Carter (07:10):
Yeah. I mean, I think the General is a great example of a brand who knows exactly who they are. Insurance is a category that is heavily invested. The big players spend a lot of money and the non-standard insurance category is also a large category, but a little known category. And I think with The General, they're always very clear that they recognize it's non-standard, they're a challenger brand, and that their consumer maybe sits outside of the traditional insurance consumer. They look different, they behave differently, and they spend a lot of time tapping into those consumers' passion points. The simplicity of this was that the majority of consumers were basically listening to filming, making music in their cars. And so we use the car as a space or as the platform or the foundation for the campaign because we recognize that that was where they did the most of the most.
(08:09):
In the case of Rotest Royale, again, gaming is such an important part of that nonstandard segment's life, but there is also a disconnect between the number of people who are taking their driving lessons. And when you think about it, things like driving are taught in an environment which is the opposite of gaming. So how do we gamify the process of qualifying more people to drive? And what I like about them as an insurance company is that when you think about financial services, highly regulated industries, you are going to have the most regulated campaigns, but they're the opposite. They tap into their audience, they tap into their interests and are willing to push the envelope to meet them around their interests.
Damian Fowler (08:50):
I've got a question about how you identified the opportunity, how you identified the audience for these creative leaps that you're making.
Daale Carter (09:00):
I think it goes back to the social intelligence piece that we're just talking about. So social listening is a term and everybody talks about it. Social listening often happens after there's been a level of ideation. I think going to the platforms and trying to understand the behavior, what people are talking about, where they're engaging the most first before you do anything, before you even understand the business problem that you fundamentally need to solve, helped us understand what that non-standard consumer, who they are and what their interests are.
Ilyse Liffreing (09:36):
Now, The General can't really compete with larger players on media spend. So how does that constraint actually unlock more inventive thinking? I guess the social listening is one example of that, but is there other ways the creativity really gets unlocked and push both you and the client further outside the box?
Daale Carter (10:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think tapping into those communities and those sub-communities is absolutely critical for the general. When you think about mass media investment, it is about reaching a mass audience and then it's about identifying behaviors and then tapping into those behavioral triggers. In the case of the general, it's about identifying those micro audiences, the behaviors that resonate with them the most and really engaging them with them there. And so it isn't a case of trying to outspend. It's such an overly invested category. It really is about understanding and outsmarting. And so again, I think the general's philosophy isn't to chase to be the next one of the big three insurers. It is to continue to have a challenger mindset, to have a challenger spirit. And I think there's something freeing about that because it means that you don't have to behave within a certain box.
(10:57):
It actually allows them to break down those walls and explore and they have a real appetite for test and learn, which I think is really, really valuable in a client. And as you guys know from a media perspective, so much of media is testing and learning and willingness to do so is critical because not everything will work. I think the general have been really fortunate to find a lot of things that do work, but they have been heavily built on communities and sub-communities.
Damian Fowler (11:24):
Before we get to takeaways here, I'd love to just get a little bit more insight into the kind of final creative output that you did for each of those two, the Sound Studio and the Road Test Royal. Just give us a bit more detail about what showed up.
Daale Carter (11:41):
Yeah. So the Sound Studio, basically because of the insight people in their cars, the General alongside Universal Music Group built a studio in a car, and that studio went around the country inviting recording artists to record a debut track essentially in their car. And so it was a really fun experiential piece. And actually one of the Sound Studio artists ended up being featured on Beyonce's Cowboy Carter album. And so it also not only gave a platform to the General, but really a platform to these fledgling artists who fit this non-standard category, tapping into their passions and actually gave them a promotion platform to push their music. So the manifestation of that was great. And then in the case of Rose Hess Royale, we partnered with Fortnite to actually create a online learning driving module for teens who are transitioning into driving, but again, using some elements of the game that made it much more interesting and allowed people to unlock learning in a way that was most relevant for them.
(12:53):
Again, the more we qualify people to be on the road and safely, the more opportunity we give people to be eligible for insurance.
Ilyse Liffreing (13:01):
I want to talk a little bit about the outcomes from these campaigns, not just in terms of performance, but perhaps how audiences actually engaged with the brand. And were you pleased with the outcomes, I guess, in how the entire campaigns rolled out?
Daale Carter (13:20):
Yeah. I mean, I think in the case of the general, insurance isn't seen as the world's sexiest category. And I think the beauty of these campaigns is engaging and building relevance with audiences that typically wouldn't. But most importantly, we're all in the business of driving business. They also drove really successful business outcomes, which I don't think we can underestimate the importance of. And the more we see success by tapping into these communities, the more clients are willing to push the boundaries of what they're willing to try in order to engage those audiences. So I think that is what success looks like is one, tapping into audiences that we haven't been able to before, and two, having continued opportunity to engage them because they are becoming clients, customers, partners with the business.
Ilyse Liffreing (14:14):
Do you still find today in 2026 that it often takes some effort on your part to get brands to experiment just like you were talking about?
Daale Carter (14:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's variable. I think in 2026, there are macroeconomic pressures, there are very real business priorities that clients have, and there's less money to do that with. And so risk aversion is probably at an all-time high because you need to be able to show return on your investment. I'd say our long-term partnerships, there's an element of trust there. So actually I don't think we have to spend a lot of time convincing that creative distinction is the right way to go, but there is certainly an air of caution and I think it's on us to be good stewards of our client's budget and that caution, but to also be able to illustrate why it's important to continue to push creativity.
Damian Fowler (15:16):
What did the Sound Studio and Road Test Royale reveal about how those younger non-traditional consumers want to interact with brands today?
Daale Carter (15:25):
Well, I think brands have always spoken to consumers in a very brand out way. It's like, "I'm the brand, I want to tell you about my products, my product A, B, C, they look great. Here's what you should try and here's what you do." I think those brands teach us that it has to be consumer in. What we speak to consumers about has to be firmly centered in what they care about because actually nobody really cares about what your brand has to say unless it's resonant and relevant. And so I think everybody is on the holy grail and the quest to convert Gen Z and younger audiences. There is 80% listening and 20% activating when it comes to those audiences because they don't have a long list of relationship or legacy that they built up with brands. Oh, and by the way, there's 500 brands that could do the same thing that you do from their belief.
(16:20):
So it's really important. I think what that taught us was to engage with those audiences on their terms and their passion points.
Damian Fowler (16:30):
Yeah. Was there anything surprising about the campaigns where the penny dropped and you were like, wow, this is really hitting audiences in a way that I didn't expect, or whether it was through social engagement or how creators participated or cultural pickup?
Daale Carter (16:47):
Yeah, I worked in the music industry for a long time before I got into advertising, and so I've always understood there's an underground scene of musicians who are looking for the opportunity or who need a platform to be able to take their career to the next step. So I don't know if it was surprising, but certainly the ability to unlock that underground music scene and give those people who may be, again, you might have a number of followers on your page, but not as many followers as kind of an endorsement or a partnership with a brand is going to give you. So I think it certainly unlocked a lot of that.
Ilyse Liffreing (17:26):
What about when it comes to the data itself? Was there anything that might challenge conventional assumptions about how brands should behave and react to these audiences?
Daale Carter (17:40):
I don't know if the data highlighted anything revealing. I think the biggest thing that the data highlighted is that sometimes we over engineer hypothesis about audiences and actually the reality lives in a very simple behavioral insight. But actually the simplicity of the insight around music and gaming is a thing that drove us to the campaigns and actually that traded out in the types of audiences that we were able to engage and grow with the brand. And so I think what it did was further solidify that those passion points were at a really important intersection for the potential customers of the general.
Ilyse Liffreing (18:20):
Now you have a bit of a reputation as a client whisperer. I love that nickname by the way. So badass. So you're someone who can push clients forward with better briefs and bolder thinking. So sometimes that means saying no to a client potentially. What would you say that no and saying that well actually looks like in practice?
Daale Carter (18:48):
I think I have never had a client say, "I don't want to work with you anymore because you told me no." I have seen plenty of clients say things to agencies like, "You did not lead me. You didn't drive me. We were telling you what to do versus you telling us what to do." And so I think when you think about it through that lens, you realize that saying no doesn't lead to any kind of negative outcome. It's about, again, putting those business challenges at the heart of what you do and then responding to clients in ways that sometimes feel unexpected. And so I think the service mindset, which is the client is always right, has maybe over-engineered agencies into being yes people. And I don't think any client wants that. Clients want a partner. They want someone who can challenge them. They want someone who can spar with them.
(19:46):
They want somebody who has an outside perspective than what they have. And so for me, it's just that simple. I always want to be the best partner I can be, the best steward of the client's investment, and sometimes that means saying no. It means saying yes a lot too, but also no.
Damian Fowler (20:06):
Yeah. Now I want to ask you about Reddit again. I know we talked about this at the top of the podcast, but obviously Reddit is coming up a lot. We've talked about Reddit on other podcasts recently, and it seems to be this incredible source, a community platform. It's influencing the way people think, product decisions, brand perception. How should brands rethink where culture is actually being shaped today?
Daale Carter (20:31):
Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, I don't think any of us are saying that all of culture is being shaped in Reddit, but I do think that brands have to have a willingness to move away from their predisposed view of what their consumer is and who they are and a willingness to engage in platforms like Reddit. I have a cousin who has an insights company and we were trying to crack a brief and it was all about consumers and behavior around football. And the insight that he gave was just so simple, but also I think so symbolic of how platforms like Reddit and TikTok kind of reshape, which was that the game happens on screen, but the real commentary of the game is in the group chat.That's where people are engaging, that's where you are having while you're watching the game, you're talking to your friends who either support the same team or a different team.
(21:31):
We're on WhatsApp, the group chat is where it's happening. And I though that insight was so simple because actually that now gives brands a completely different place. It's like, yes, you can buy your 30 seconds and your 15 second spots and you can run ads during the World Cup, but what if you wanted to take over the group chat? What would that look like for a brand? And actually, I feel like that would be more relevant for some of the audiences that we're speaking to. And so I do think platforms, but also a deeper understanding of those audiences comes from within those platforms for sure.
Ilyse Liffreing (22:04):
Yeah. And that kind of jumps into this next question about authenticity because authenticity is great when it's done right, but where do brands get it wrong? So they have to make sure they're talking to the right audiences in the right places.
Daale Carter (22:24):
Yeah. I mean, authenticity is one of those words that it's almost become a buzzword, but I don't think anyone should discount it because it's so critical. You can't be inauthentic. I'm not going to be Louis Vuitton suddenly showing up at street festivals. It's not going to be believable. So I also think authenticity is important for brands to understand what they will do, where they will play, but also where they won't play and stay true to who you are because consumers more than anything can see through it right now. So I think mining and understanding who you are as a brand and also understanding when you can jump on a cultural trend and when you shouldn't because it doesn't feel authentic to the brand is really important. And to the point of being able to say no, being able to say to clients, "This feels right for you, but this doesn't feel right for you, so you shouldn't do that."
Damian Fowler (23:17):
Yeah, that's a great answer. Is there an emerging consumer behavior or culture shift, whether that's in gaming or creator culture or online that you think marketers are sort of missing out on right now or underestimating maybe?
Daale Carter (23:33):
Every brand knows they should be generating content. Every brand believes they should be engaging with creators. Every brand thinks that influencers should be a part of their brand, but those things are becoming quickly commoditized. There's a lot of it everywhere. Everyone's doing it. The brands that are going to break away and stand out are going to be the brands who explore more and different or think about different and unique ways to utilize those things. I think it's really important for brands not to chase commodity, but to be thoughtful in how they do it. If I'm brand A and brand B is producing droves of content, doesn't mean I have to do the same thing. Brands have to continue to be thoughtful even in the face of all the trends.
Ilyse Liffreing (24:20):
Totally agree on that. So now let's get into some rapid fire hotsee questions for you. First one, what's the sign in the first five minutes of a meeting that a brief is going to be a problem?
Daale Carter (24:34):
Don't know what the business problem is that we're trying to solve. So if nowhere in the beginning of the brief they've talked about what the business needs to do, then we don't have the brief.
Damian Fowler (24:44):
Okay. What's the most underrated trait of a great client?
Daale Carter (24:50):
Oh, the most underrated trait of a great client is a good sparring partner.
Ilyse Liffreing (24:59):
I love that answer. What is one thing agencies still get wrong about building real client trust?
Daale Carter (25:06):
Saying yes to everything. That's not how you build client trust.
Damian Fowler (25:09):
What's your go-to move when a client is playing it too safe?
Daale Carter (25:16):
Call a timeout. I'll typically just call a timeout and say we need to hold and then point them back to what they told us they wanted us to do in the beginning and remind them that we can't get to that by playing it safe.
Ilyse Liffreing (25:31):
What would you say is harder, pushing a challenger brand to think bigger or a legacy brand to think differently?
Daale Carter (25:41):
A legacy brand to think differently. Challenger brands don't typically feel like they have anything to lose, whereas legacy brands have legacy and their reputation to lose. But the challenger spirit is what allows you to push creative boundaries. And so I think every brand could use a little bit of a challenger mindset.